After filling the streets of Barcelona on 11th September for the sixth consecutive time to mark the Diada, Catalonia's national day, the objective is now slightly different: filling the ballot boxes on 1st October for the independence referendum. This is the challenge now for Jordi Cuixart, president of Omnium Cultural, one of the two major civil society groups that have led the movement for Catalan independence. At the Diada celebrations, Cuixart asserted that “voting is not a crime”. However, he knows that the goal will not be easy with an entire state machine against it.
Omnium Cultural itself has been a target as the offensive has intensified. On Friday, Omnium revealed that the Spanish Post Office had held on to a part of the 60,000 copies of the organization's monthly magazine for September, instead of delivering them. The package sent to subscribers included a banner with a one-word slogan: 'Democracy'.
How would you rate this year's Diada?
Very positive. Once again, hundreds of thousands of people got out on the street and there was not a single incident. The response by the public was once again exceptional, I believe also in terms of the numbers who took part. Independently of the figures given by people with an interest to push, it is evident that the predictions were exceeded.
Perhaps the figures were a little short of those in some other years.
The figure was given by the Barcelona police... We have never been competing against ourselves. What we do know is that the number of people there was well above expectations. Getting into a war of figures is pointless and it does not lead anywhere. For the last seven years, hundreds of thousands of people have been getting out on the street. This is unique in Europe and unrivalled in much of the world.
But isn't there a certain amount of fatigue?
We don't detect it anywhere. If fatigue means that the National Pact for the Referendum has once again obtained agreement from more than 4,000 groups, that 40,000 volunteers have registered to organize the referendum, that people have turned out massively to the marches called to respond to Constitutional Court rulings... then fatigue is a biased reading.
Even though we have become used to the Spanish state's repression, we mustn't stop denouncing it.
And since the Diada, the State has intensified its offensive...
It was predictable that Spain would take action once the Diada had passed. Once again, this shows up the lack of independence of powers in the Spanish state, which have the capacity to react based on political, rather than juridical parameters. Even though we are used to it we mustn't stop denouncing it. We were convinced that the Spanish state's attempted repression would not stop. And we are seeing that...
This week they have threatened to use Article 155 of the constitution, on suspending the powers of the Catalan government, in five days. How should the Catalan government respond in the case of bannings, suspensions or interventions?
These threats have very little basis. And opposing the threats from the Spanish state, we are seeing a systematic response from the international community, with positions being taken that are exceptionally favourable to the referendum. We are seeing some surprising declarations, just as those of Juncker and the White House spokesperson, taking for granted that the vote will occur and saying they will accept the result of the ballot boxes.
But how will the Catalan government have to act if this happens?
We are convinced that the government will continue to act with the same diligence, control and sense of state that it has shown up till now. The government says it has everything ready for 1st October. We are convinced that it cannot be otherwise. Carrying out this referendum, with all the machinery of the state against it, has a double merit. But that does not affect the completely official and binding nature of the result that emerges.
Miquel Buch and Neus Lloveras, leaders of Catalan local government associations, have also been given criminal summons - not as mayors, but as presidents of their associations.
This ideological persecution is completely inadmissible. It takes us towards a state of emergency as a country. In that regard, we call on the Catalan Socialist Party to take a stand urgently given this scenario. We are saying this while we watch, astonished, how the representatives of these associations are being pursued for ideological motives, not for having committed any crime. We are sure that democrats will stand up to defend democracy and not allow this state of emergency which the Popular Party is attempting to apply in Catalonia.
Do you believe that this action has been taken in collusion with the Socialists?
What we say is that it is time that the Catalan Socialists take a stand, and urgently. This is no longer just about a referendum, it is about defending democratic values. The freedom of speech, and with it the freedom of association or opinion, these things are above ideological questions. The socialists cannot delay taking a stand on this issue any longer.
It is urgent that the Catalan Socialists took a stand on democracy and the freedom of speech. This is no longer just about a referendum, but about democratic values.
In favour of the referendum?
In favour of the defence of democracy and freedom of speech. Today what is being questioned in Catalonia by the Spanish state in a very aggressive way is the freedom of speech. Since 2007, it has not been an offence in Spain to call a referendum. However, the Constitutional Court is treating it as if it were an offence. In Catalonia we are in a situation of systematic ideological persecution, with the state harbouring a dirty war and exploiting all its mechanisms. There are courts that have decided to stop defending the citizens of Catalonia.
Just this week we have seen political acts on the referendum being banned. How far do you think they are prepared to go?
I have to be frank: I don't know. What I do know is how far we are willing to go to defend our freedom of speech and democracy. We will continue acting in legitimate defence, on a peaceful and democratic basis. But also being strong and assertive. We don't know the limits of the state, but maybe in turn the state doesn't know the Catalan people's capacity for resistance when it is a matter of defending democracy and social cohesion.
What should be done if they close polling stations?
We are convinced that the Catalan government will guarantee that the schools used as polling stations will be open. In any case, what we will do is suggest to people that they should spend as much time as they think appropriate at the polling stations celebrating the fact that finally Catalonia has been able to vote.
Would there be any circumstance that could justify calling off the referendum?
The only circumstance would be the use of the violence by the state. And we believe that this will not happen under any scenario, because it would cause instability of such magnitude to the European economy... We are completely convinced that the Spanish state cannot use violence even if it wants to, because in Europe this would be seen as an attack on the economy and on the freedom of speech and democracy.
Europe's democratic values are deep. The founding countries of the European Union would not allow Spain to behave violently against fellow citizens of the European Union. In a situation where the Constitutional Court has given up defending the interests of Catalan society as a whole, we are fully convinced that the European Union will not abandon Catalans.
How should we act if the state uses violence to stop the referendum?
It would depend on the level of this violence. What is also clear to us is that in this country of shared struggles, where we have already been victims of violence in other intensities and forms, there is no kind of threat that will make Catalans desist from defending democracy and freedom of speech. Our tools will never include violence, but neither is resignation an option. The Catalan people have decided that they will never again just give up. This country will never again be what it once was. We have ceased to be a management agency for minor economic resources.
Was the passing of the laws of disconnection an advance rupture with Spain?
What the Catalan Parliament has already done, with the support of a good part of the public, is an exercise in self-determination. The Constitutional Court has said that the Referendum Law has been suspended, and the Catalan government does not recognize the authority of the Constitutional Court.
If it happens that, in order to celebrate the referendum, we need a declaration of independence, we will do that. We can't ask the people of Catalonia just to resign themselves any more.
Would it be legitimate to proclaim independence, if it is prevented by force?
The proclamation of independence is anchored in the exercise which we want to carry out on 1st October, of finding out the wishes of Catalans through a direct vote. But it is also clear to us that, if the Spanish state uses violence so that we can't vote, we will be completely legitimated in using other means that lead to the holding of a referendum. If to hold the vote, we need a declaration of independence, we will do that. We can't ask the people of Catalonia just to resign themselves any more.
What role will Omnium play during the referendum campaign?
Omnium's Call for Democracy campaign is our central axis for the next three or four weeks. We want to build on the desire of the majority to hold a referendum and to denounce the demophobic attitudes of the Spanish state. We have always said that when and where it is necessary, we will go out onto the street to defend democracy, either with mobilizations or with more creative actions. This campaign is also about overcoming anxiety. If we all go together, this country has always demonstrated that things work out.
Are mobilizations during the referendum campaign being considered?
As many as are needed. But don't misinterpret that: nobody will make us get out on the street when it is not a good time to get out on the street. Our unity of action with the Catalan National Assembly is very solid and the coordination is absolute. We will not be forced into stridency or exasperation. What is important to maintain is our serenity and strength.
The electoral roll and the ballot boxes have not been sighted. What makes you think that the Catalan government has everything ready?
We have said very clearly that we are not organizing the referendum. But at the same time we are not going to be excessively pious about picking holes in the organization of a referendum that has an entire state machine against it, summoning all its powers so that we cannot vote. We demand high standards, but we have full confidence that the Catalan government is doing the same job as ever.
While the state is preventing the Mossos d'Esquadra from obtaining ammunition, it is dedicating massive amounts of time and money to something so unlike a crime as the printing of ballot papers.
The simple fact of having a entire state against it means that this time it is not “the same as ever”.
That is true. And it is exceptional. This has double merit for the Catalan government. And three times as much disgrace for Spain's government. With a level 4 terrorist alert, while the state is preventing the Mossos d'Esquadra from obtaining ammunition, they are dedicating massive amounts of time and money to something so unlike a crime as the printing of ballot papers.
Will the turn-out be the factor that determines whether the referendum will be binding?
As the EU's Venice Commission on referendums says, setting a minimum voter turn-out level is not something we should do. Facing possible calls for a boycott, the Catalan government would do well to stick to the international standards and recommendations.
But if the turn-out was similar to the unofficial 9-N vote in 2014, would it be legitimate to implement the result afterwards?
We are giving our all so that the people will take part, both ‘yes’ and ‘no’ voters. We are not going to make comparisons with 9-N, which was a collective success for the country and we are proud of it as such. But this referendum has absolutely nothing to do with what 9-N was. This referendum is binding. Anyone who isn't going to vote needs to consider that there will be someone else who is going to do so.
The difference between this referendum and others is that usually, both sides recognize the vote as such. In this case, the "no" parties do not recognize it.
You said it: the "no" parties. Another thing are the voices that are being heard more and more, like that of Albano Dante Fachin, people who are saying that the population of Catalonia has to go out and vote massively. And they are saying this from positions opposed to independence. Let's start treating Catalans like adults. We have no doubt that the ballot boxes will also be full of "no" votes’.
Around 80% of Catalans want to vote in a referendum. It will be the parties that have democratic traditions yet are opposed to the referendum who will have to face up to their voters. Nobody will understand why the Catalan Socialist Party mayors of metropolitan town councils will not give their fellow citizens a voice.
It is also true that the Podem party presents 1st October as a “mobilization”, not a binding referendum.
A mobilization that consists of placing a vote in a ballot box - and those votes will be counted. In line with the law passed by Parliament, this will be a referendum in full effect. Everybody is aware that the result it produces will be binding. People are free to describe it any way they want...
What we are clear about is that, if someone does not get out to vote, that person's vote will not be taken into account.
Aren't readings like this counter-productive?
We have complete respect for everybody. What we are clear about is that, if someone does not get out to vote, that person's vote will not be taken into account. Obviously it is a mobilization, but also a referendum.
What do you expect of the international community?
First of all we want to have the democratic mandate of the people of Catalonia. In the last few years more than 50 referendums have been held with total normality. And half of these have been carried out without any agreement with the parent state, but the result produced has still been recognized. We expect to receive the same reaction as occurred in the cases of Scotland, Quebec or the Baltic republics: scrupulous respect and the maximum of assistance, so that negotiations are carried out with as little delay and as much clarity as possible.
And the European Union?
We are sure that what Europe will never do is to put at risk a part of its economy that is as important as Catalonia. We are convinced that Europe will be the first to ensure that Catalonia is not affected by any type of instability. We are convinced that we will hear many more declarations like the recent words of Juncker. And everybody knows that the European Union does not improvise.